I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

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mistakened
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by mistakened »

cannot access the original article, it seems to have disappeared
As someone who is on the other side of Brexit I have been chiefly affected by the difficulties of obtaining goods from the UK, mainly caused by Customs hence the difficulties in tracking six pairs of black knickers! Basically Cypriot customs seem to think of a number, double it then charge you that amount of Euros. I do use Amazon de.
Food stuffs are also difficult but I find there are various Irish firms providing adequate substitutes in items such as cheese. Although I despair of ever eating smoked haddock again.
Some small firms have gone out of business, an excellent little shop who sold pet food gave up in the face of too much bureaucracy.

Regarding the residency requirements, we like a great many others including the part timers already had an ME3 document, aka "yellow slip", this has been converted into a Permanent Resident permit, it was a bureaucratic exercise. You just have to resign yourself to waiting around the Immigration Office although they were well organised by the time we applied.

Personally I objected to the way that EU interfered with British law, especially the European Court and the way that criminals were allowed to use it to delay justice.

Moira
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Suffs
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Suffs »

Let’s get the facts straight… despite the lies and misinformation promulgated by Farage and his ilk, the EU is not and never has been “dictated to by a bunch of self elected individuals” … the EU Commission is the equivalent of the UK civil service and its role is to advise and administrate. Decisions are, and always have been, made by the democratically elected members of the EU Parliament (of which Farage was one and from which he takes a pension).

Moira … which European Court did you object to? The European Court of Justice whose role it is to ensure that all the members of the EU keep to the democratically agreed rules of membership, or the European Court of Human Rights which was set up after WW2 in the wake of the Nuremberg Trials and which is not administered by the EU, although (so far, thank goodness) all members of the EU were already signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights … continued membership of which, while not perfect, the UK should guard and maintain with every breath in our body.
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Smitch
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Smitch »

I agree with Suffs. The EU elections used the PR voting system which many think is fairer than first past the post. We had a veto, which was used on many occasions, for some legislation we didn’t want. We had control of our borders. We were part of one of the largest trading blocs in the world. We had so much then threw it all away based on the words of snake oil salesmen and vested interests.

I also had no issue with either the ECJ or the ECHR. Human rights are extremely important and you only have to look at what is going on in the US now to see how easily they can be taken away :cry:
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halfateabag
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by halfateabag »

The European parliament is a democratically elected institution. I say democratic but voter turnout for European elections is very low at between 40% and 50%. The European Commission consists of appointees, not democratically elected personnel. Only the European Commission can propose legislation. The democratically elected European Parliament then has to approve the legislation. I believe there has never been an example of them overturning any major legislation proposed by the commission. So in practice it is an expensive rubber stamping procedure . This is not my idea of democracy.

The major 'lie' told during to UK European referendum was that we send £350m per week to Brussels. In fact, in the last year of membership we sent £352m per week to Brussels. The sign on the leave campaigns on the Brexit bus was misleading, because we got about one third of that back to fund development projects in the UK. However the EC not the UK had the final decision on what projects would be funded.

Figures on trade with the EU since Brexit can depend on how they are viewed and compiled. The OBR forecast that, long term, Brexit will reduce exports and imports between the UK and Europe by 15%. Of course this depends on the subjective assumption of what trade would have been if we had remained in the EC. Five years on from Brexit, export of goods from the UK to the EC are between 6 and 30% lower that they would have been if we had still been in the single market, depending on which assumptions are made.

Since leaving the EC exports of goods are actually down at about 85% of what they were before Brexit. Exports of services, which is now nearly 80% of the UK's GDP, are actually up about 40% compared to when we left the EC. This overall looks like an excellent result for the UK.

As dictated by Mr Zosh, he is cleverer than me !
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scullion
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by scullion »

but still 59 % of the population would now vote for remain if there was another referendum.
obviously, now, the majority of the population appreciate that they are worse off and that there's a paucity of goods now available at previous prices - and fewer travel benefits/ease of movement .
halfateabag wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:52 pm The OBR forecast that, long term, Brexit will reduce exports and imports between the UK and Europe by 15%. Of course this depends on the subjective assumption of what trade would have been if we had remained in the EC. Five years on from Brexit, export of goods from the UK to the EC are between 6 and 30% lower that they would have been if we had still been in the single market, depending on which assumptions are made.

Since leaving the EC exports of goods are actually down at about 85% of what they were before Brexit. Exports of services, which is now nearly 80% of the UK's GDP, are actually up about 40% compared to when we left the EC. This overall looks like an excellent result for the UK.
the red highlight doesn't look like good results especially export of goods being down to 85% of what they were (no figure given in the above for the gdp pre and post brexit).
export of services (green highlight) have an increase in percentage due to the decrease in goods being exported
the total % change in gdp (against previous years) in 2016 was 1.9%, in 2023 (latest figure from the ons) is 0.3% (major blip in graph due to covid i expect - and maybe war in ukraine).
is that an excellent result?

ps. gdp is a measure of all products and services bought/sold within the uk as well as those exported and imported. it's not really a good measure of a country's import/export strength.
Last edited by scullion on Mon Feb 03, 2025 11:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
KeenCook
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by KeenCook »

I actually submitted a question about the cost of Brexit to The Two Matts podcast this week - I don't know if any of you listen to it.

Anyway, my question had been that I had seen something that said that the amount we had lost since leaving was more than we had contributed while an EU member. I asked them if this could be true.

The answer was that over the 47 years of membership, we had contributed £225 bn NET.

Bloomberg published a report in 2023 on the third anniversary of Brexit, stating that we had lost £100 bn a year in the three years since we had left the EU.

If anyone is interested I can send you the link, where they discuss how they analysed the data to ensure they were comparing apples with apples.
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Earthmaiden
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Earthmaiden »

No system is perfect. We reaped from the EU as well as sowed both financially and in many other ways. There were also some useful safeguards to standards which are no longer checked (such as ensuring top quality drinking water) and many, many benefits from sharing knowledge and trade. We were told that if we voted to leave there would be a rocky few years while we adjusted. It's nearly 10 years since the referendum ... the country doesn't seem to be blossoming.

Still, this was true democracy ..... and unfortunately, if 51% vote one way, 49% are disappointed. Be careful what you wish for!

If we've got all this extra money, where's it going?

How interesting, KC.
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Suffs
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Suffs »

So as you say the export of British goods is down … this is having a very serious effect on workers in British agriculture and our manufacturing industries, not to mention the transport industry.

An ‘increase’ of 40% in the export of services (presumably as a proportion of our overall exports) may look superficially like an excellent result overall for the UK on the balance sheet at least … it is certainly what some financiers, bankers, commodity traders and all those who make money by moving fictional money around were hoping for when they espoused Brexit in the hope of avoiding EU regulation and taxation on their businesses.

How it is an excellent result for the rest of the UK escapes me … the principle of ‘trickle down economics’ having been totally discredited.

The result is that, as the song says ‘the rich get richer and the poor get poorer’ … a line from a song which was written about the economic crash of the 1920s and the Depression years … which we seem to be in danger of repeating.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 29764.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/ ... et-poorer/

Sadly the other sector that is doing well out of all the global uncertainty engendered by isolationist policies and financial insecurity is arms manufacturing … we are exporting arms … it’s making some folk rich but only a moron could see that as good news for the long term future of the world.

The world is a safer and happier place when the wellbeing of a community (whether of people or countries) is dependent on the wellbeing of those around it.
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Suffs
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Suffs »

halfateabag wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:52 pm …., As dictated by Mr Zosh, he is cleverer than me !
Who told you that? ;)
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halfateabag
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by halfateabag »

:lol: :lol: That's me, he is snoring gently next to me !
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Suffs
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Suffs »

Quite often, if you can’t make sense of something someone is telling you, it may be that it’s not that you’re not bright enough to understand … it’s that what they’re saying is wrong.
Women have been told for years that we can’t be expected to understand … we should leave it to the men … and we’ve pandered to the male ego and let them carry on thinking they’re the clever ones … and look what a fine mess that got us into …
Last edited by Suffs on Mon Feb 03, 2025 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Badger's Mate
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Badger's Mate »

Here are some numbers. Official ones.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31

They don’t seem to corroborate that we were paying £350 million per week, £18 (American) Billion per year, nor were we asked to, because of our special rebate. Whether the people who claimed this was the figure were disingenuous liars or hopeless buffoons is as yet unproven. After 50 years of made-up stories about the EU straightening our bananas, banning our sausages and demanding that bottled water required a safety data sheet, I have my suspicions. The run up to the referendum was hopeless. There was no real mention of Northern Ireland for example; both sides thought Remain would win, they were smug and complacent, Leave just repeated the same old things about control of jobs, laws & immigration which are issues in a globalised world economy whether we’re in or out.

It’s a continuing theme. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the next government was a coalition of the Nigel Farage party and the Conservatives.

We get the politicians we deserve.
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aero280
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by aero280 »

There are two things to bear in mind. Half the population has an IQ of under 100. When you add the very rich and greedy exploiters to that, you have a majority.

And, whoever you vote for, a politician always gets elected.
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Seatallan
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Seatallan »

Badger's Mate wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 9:36 am Here are some numbers. Official ones.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31

They don’t seem to corroborate that we were paying £350 million per week, £18 (American) Billion per year, nor were we asked to, because of our special rebate. Whether the people who claimed this was the figure were disingenuous liars or hopeless buffoons is as yet unproven. After 50 years of made-up stories about the EU straightening our bananas, banning our sausages and demanding that bottled water required a safety data sheet, I have my suspicions. The run up to the referendum was hopeless. There was no real mention of Northern Ireland for example; both sides thought Remain would win, they were smug and complacent, Leave just repeated the same old things about control of jobs, laws & immigration which are issues in a globalised world economy whether we’re in or out.

It’s a continuing theme. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the next government was a coalition of the Nigel Farage party and the Conservatives.

We get the politicians we deserve.
I SO agree Badger's Mate.
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Badger's Mate
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Badger's Mate »

If some poor soul loses his or her job in manufacturing because the factory has moved to Eastern Europe it’s not surprising if they blame the EU. Indeed, the EU might be a factor in the destination of the move. It isn’t, however, the reason the job left the UK. We’re in a world of global trade, communication, transport and travel. It will only get more so.
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Uschi
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Uschi »

And in a world of Trumps, Putins and Xi Pings one needs all the allies one can get or they will kick us around like school yard bullies.

Russia investes a lot in desinformation and it is working. My son in law was going on about "350 people killed by knives daily" (in Germany). What with less than 3000 people killed through violence last year (that is every unlawful killing) something does not compute.
I, for one, still feel safe in the streets. As for migration, the arsehole percentage in every group is pretty much the same in every group of human being. A German one is as bad as a Syrian one.
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halfateabag
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by halfateabag »

The European parliament is a democratically elected institution. I say democratic but voter turnout for European elections is very low at between 40% and 50%. The European Commission consists of appointees, not democratically elected personnel. Only the European Commission can propose legislation. The democratically elected European Parliament then has to approve the legislation. I believe there has never been an example of them overturning any major legislation proposed by the commission. So in practice it is an expensive rubber stamping procedure . This is not my idea of democracy.

The major 'lie' told during to UK European referendum was that we send £350m per week to Brussels. In fact, in the last year of membership we sent £352m per week to Brussels. The sign on the leave campaigns on the Brexit bus was misleading, because we got about one third of that back to fund development projects in the UK. However the EC not the UK had the final decision on what projects would be funded.

Figures on trade with the EU since Brexit can depend on how they are viewed and compiled. The OBR forecast that, long term, Brexit will reduce exports and imports between the UK and Europe by 15%. Of course this depends on the subjective assumption of what trade would have been if we had remained in the EC. Five years on from Brexit, export of goods from the UK to the EC are between 6 and 30% lower that they would have been if we had still been in the single market, depending on which assumptions are made.

Since leaving the EC exports of goods are actually down at about 85% of what they were before Brexit. Exports of services, which is now nearly 80% of the UK's GDP, are actually up about 40% compared to when we left the EC. This overall looks like an excellent result for the UK.

As dictated by Mr Zosh, he is cleverer than me !
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scullion
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by scullion »

did you mean to re-post this‽‽
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Smitch
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Smitch »

I’d also like to point out the turnout at the last general election was under 60%…
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Uschi
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Re: I'm sorry, I have to vent ...

Post by Uschi »

halfateabag wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:52 pm The European parliament is a democratically elected institution. I say democratic but voter turnout for European elections is very low at between 40% and 50%. The European Commission consists of appointees, not democratically elected personnel. Only the European Commission can propose legislation. The democratically elected European Parliament then has to approve the legislation. I believe there has never been an example of them overturning any major legislation proposed by the commission. So in practice it is an expensive rubber stamping procedure . This is not my idea of democracy.
A) people have the chance to vote. If they lack the intelligence to do so that does not make the process undemocratic.

B) The appointees are appointed by democratically voted for governments. What is undemocratic about that?
If each of them needed a new vote to be legitimate we'd be voting every bloody weekend and still have plenty left over.
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