The lining of the stomach

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

We've had a distasteful conversation coming back from Waitrose.
My sister's FIL lost the lining of his stomach, directly through eating pills on an empty stomach first thing. He knew he had to eat something, but being the obstinate man he was, who eats in the evening.
He simply ignored repeated sage advice. Even with terrible symptoms.

Anyway.
Tony mentioned a few people on gap years during the 70's he had worked with in his time, who went to a certain country as students.
Who also lost the lining of their stomachs directly due to the diet there.
Neither of us knew where.

Any ideas?

[Renee Profile]

It seems to be known as erosive gastritis, Gill and if you scroll down a bit, you will come to the lost lining information:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gastritis/

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Yes, gastritis, you don’t actually loose all you stomach lining, you just damage it

I can’t think of anywhere that the diet / endemic infections would cause severe persistent gastritis in gap year students - gastritis, oesophagitus and ulcer were my job in the 80s. Japan and Korea have the highest rates of gastritis, but it takes years of chomping pickles to develop

Unless coming from the bland British diet they went to India or SE Asia and went chilli mad? That might do it

[jeral Profile]

Sorry to hear about sister's FIL and do hope he's "mending" somehow and not in pain.

One of those tasteless "meals in a drink" might suit people who can't face eating on an empty stomach. Not drinking enough water with tablets (at least half a glass) can also cause problems in the oesophagus as well as stomach.

Strong alcohol on an empty stomach isn't good either, thinking gap year freedom. I worked with someone aged 30-ish who was warned that drinking spirits and not eating was ulcerating his stomach lining. Luckily he paid heed before it was too late as I bumped into a reformed him a decade later.

We no doubt all think that we can ignore some of the numerous "scare" warnings, which annoyingly clouds warnings we really should pay attention to.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Nanas have the right idea about taking tablets (except those to be taken before food)

Eat bread and butter
Swallow tablets with some water
Recover with a nice cuppa to wash it all in

And follow the fippin’ instructions. A whole team went to a lot of trouble to develop them!

[Alexandria Profile]

Gil,

All my best wishes for a Speedy recovery for your relative ..

It is curable however, with dietary measures taken and changes required ..


It is quite common and stems mostly from: Fried foods, too much acid, caffefine, carbonated drinks, and too much red meat .. ( No No´s ) ..

The Akalaine ( very low acid ) diet suggested: Rice, Pasta, Green Veggies, Turkey, White Fish and Chicken. Lots of broccoli .. (any format except fried ) and No oils .. or Mustard or sauces ..

Lemon in water to balance the akaline and acid ..

Ginger in water boiled ..


No coffee and no tea .. No caffefine ..

[Amyw Profile]

I always thought the alkaline diet was a load of rubbish and believed that the acid/alkaline properties of food don't affect the ph of the blood, just the urine. Sue will no doubt know much more from a scientific point of view.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Gil,

All my best wishes for a Speedy recovery for your relative ..

It is curable however, with dietary measures taken and changes required ..


It is quite common and stems mostly from: Fried foods, too much acid, caffefine, carbonated drinks, and too much red meat .. ( No No´s ) ..

The Akalaine ( very low acid ) diet suggested: Rice, Pasta, Green Veggies, Turkey, White Fish and Chicken. Lots of broccoli .. (any format except fried ) and No oils .. or Mustard or sauces ..

Lemon in water to balance the akaline and acid ..

Ginger in water boiled ..


No coffee and no tea .. No caffefine ..

Member 461
Did you read the bit where I said this was one of my research topics as a professional scientist?

Everything you have said is old grannies tales that were discredited years ago. Bland diet is no longer prescribed by most doctors, advice is simply to avoid anything that doesn’t suit you personally. Ginger is not a good idea for gastritis, although good for some stomach complaints, as it is carminative, increasing the blood flow to the stomach lining.

Mild gastritis ( the sort you get iafter a tummy bug or simply a weekend of overeating and drinking) will go away if you avoid alcohol and any foods that cause discomfort; you can also get medicines from the pharmacy, just ask the pharmacist for advice

The severe kind that Gill and I were discussing cannot be controlled with diet. The patient needs to see a doctor, a gastroenterologist, to receive advice and will almost always need medication only available with a doctor’s prescription. Severe cases may need hospital treatment including blood transfusions.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

I always thought the alkaline diet was a load of rubbish and believed that the acid/alkaline properties of food don't affect the ph of the blood, just the urine. Sue will no doubt know much more from a scientific point of view.

You are absolutely right about the fashionable alkalinising diet being a load of old tosh
It was a perfectly reasonable theory when proposed 90 years ago but I think most people discarded the idea when pH meters became cheap and cheerful not that long after. But Gwyneth Paltrow chooses to ignore that

I think two things may have got confused here

Before there were effective drugs for gastritis, and the related condition of ulcer, and there wasn’t anything good until about 45 years ago, the treatment was bland diet, with a lot of dairy, and reduction of the stomach acid with simple alkaline products such as Pepto Bismol
But this was only palliative, not a cure
Trouble is, the combination of diet and medicines could lead to an unpleasant condition known as milk-alkali syndrome
As late as 1968 surgery was still the main treatment for persistent ulcer and people died quite often from bleeding peptic ulcer.

[karadekoolaid Profile]

What a terrible affliction that must be. Every bite, every meal, a sinister form of torture. Horrendous.
Regarding the effect of chiles, I have read many articles on the benefits of the fiery fellows. I have also eaten chiles regularly ( and that means, almost every day) for the past 40 years or so. I can probably count the number of acidity incidents on two hands.
Despite common folklore, there are many "experts" who believe that chiles do NOT damage the stomach linings; on the contrary, they aid it. Capsaicin, the ingredient in a chile which burns the mouth, is not an acid, but a base. A base, in chemistry, is a substance which reacts with water and becomes slippery to the touch; whilst it reacts with an acid, it is not an acid. ( Stokey Sue, help me out here!)
I´ve read reports from the University of New Mexico which describe experiments where capsaicin was injected directly into stomach linings, and caused no ill effects on the " acidity" side. And I´ve just come across this article:https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/2079806/do-spicy-foods-cause-stomach-ulcers-surprising-truth which would appear to corroborate that theory.
However, I can offer some empirical thoughts - totally non-scientific - from my own family.
My two sons are carnivores. They would happily eat meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner, accompanied by a glass or six of milk. Both suffer from acid reflux. They don´t really eat veg ( which horrifies their mainly vegetarian dad!). The eldest eats fish, and that never seems to cause problems, but the youngest will only eat fish if it´s wrapped in bacon, or beef fillet .
Could that be a problem?
I wonder about the folks in Argentina, where meat is there principal diet. Do they suffer from stomach problems more than others?
Just a few thoughts to stimulate the discussion.

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

Thanks for the informed thoughts. Sue, why am I not surprised that this is your specialist field

I'm now of an age, 55, where I consider the possibility of permanent damage.
Repeated acid, might lead to something more sinister, not to be dismissed. Your link sort of confirms those bigger problems, Renee.
I'm fairly careful about what I eat now.

My niece is real carnivore too.
Her plate is 2/3 meat, to 1/3 something else.

Regarding the alkaline vs acidity.
Touted as a cancer cure, it's a dangerous thing. My friend was clutching at straws when she had a double mastectomy.
And bought into it massively.
In America, you get banged up for such claims. Nothing happens over here though.

Personally
I get terrible acid when I eat breakfast cereal; muesli cornflakes cocopops (just kidding on that last one).
What's that about.
Never chillies. I'm at my happiest with a spicy meal in front of me.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

I don’t think they are locking up many Americans Gill, most of the lunatics I see and those Angry Chef argues with are US citizens. Some states seem to harbour the blighters. The trouble is the internet means they can be anywhere and still spread their pernicious “guidance”

Clive, the link between these stomach conditions and diet is complex. And we now know for sure that a lot of the problem is actually infection, the cure for severe gastritis and ulcer these days usually includes antibiotics

H. pylori was first discovered in the stomachs of patients with gastritis and ulcers in 1982 by Drs. Barry Marshall and Robin Warren of Perth, Western Australia. At the time, the conventional thinking was that no bacterium could live in the acid environment of the human stomach.

Gastric cancer, a different disease, may be related to diet, particularly nitrite, so fresh meat as in Argentina wouldn’t be a specific risk

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

Well there should be more of them banged up, Sue.
I was thinking about this dangerous quack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_O._Young
Praying on people who need all the help they can get.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Yes, but the charges were for face to face contact with subjects, and indeed the assault of drawing blood when not licensed to do so. The propaganda war doesn’t seem to lead to serious censure unless you can actually be convicted of practising medicine without s license

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

That's true.

Tell me, when you seriously lose the lining of the stomach, does it grow back?

[Stokey Sue Profile]

You don’t completely lose it (you’d bleed to death I think) so it can always regenerate from the residue. But only the clinician can tell you for an individual

[Sakkarin Profile]

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

Ha ha ha.
It was a brief unpleasant conversation at the weekend.

However, as you get older, you do think about things that don't spring back, and don't repair. Well I do.
My being born in 1963.
I've just been invited for a trial colon scope by the NHS. ........ (Yes! You're right in your thinking, that's the one).
All clear, thank you.
But the peace of mind is a wonderful feeling.

Screening saves lives.

There's nothing to it, as you hear a lot of people say. I do hope they roll it out as a national routine scan at 50.

You walk normally afterwards, I went there on my bike. No trouble. I almost recommend it.

[Lusciouslush Profile]

You're weird Grillygirl…………!

I have long thought colonoscopies should be done regularly every couple of years - the thinking here amongst gastro guys is once every ten years if there are no symptoms - that's not good enough - the Americans have it done once a year - you have to go privately if you want more screening here. Lowering the age to 50 tho' will be brilliant for the 2yr bowel test - good on that girl from Eastbourne!


I do hope your sister's f-I-l recovers - it sounds nasty & I didn't realise that was the reason for not taking meds on an empty stomach, I thought that was something to do with absorption etc.

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

OOOOO doctor. Next time cut your nails please.

2yrs is do-able.
I'd go.

It is a bit sad that you learn more about risks via other people and their own ailments tho.
I'm not too wimpish about the docs, but you could have calming gas if you so required.
You'd probably have had to work yourself up into a right old tizz to require it. There were some nervous behaviour patterns going on in the waiting room.