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Healthy Eating

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Stokey Sue » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:57 pm

Jeral, I agree, that's absolutely the problem I have with so many of these studies/scares, it is very hard to be dogmatic because the data is fuzzy, but people are dogmatic, it's in their nature

Two big problems - one "correlation is not causation" - there's probably in the UK a correlation between wearing blue football shirts and ginger hair, but the link is Scottish heritage, not wearing the shirts (yes, I know that's silly but silly examples are often the clearest)

The other is what Michael Pollan call "nutritionism" - picking one small component of a diet, looking for correlations then putting it on the naughty step

Earthmaiden wrote:It surprises me that processed meats are still so popular after all the bad publicity they have had. You have to take a lot of interest in the process it has gone through and/or eat very sparingly. That said, some people live on them and live to a ripe old age.

Doesn't surprise me at all for the following reasons:
1. these things are a routine part of the diet all over the world, it would take a seismic shift to get people to stop eating them, though there is evidence people eat less now (and you need to replace the protein and other nutrients if it's a big part of the diet)

2. most people feel better not worse after eating a nice plate of Parma ham or a bacon sandwich, not worse, and humans are motivated by immediate effect

3. this is a correlation that really seems to have scientific basis, but the risk is much lower than some press articles would have you believe. The best studies suggest the increase in bowel cancer risk from eating a slice of bacon every day is 20% higher than the risk in people who never eat bacon. If you actually count - take a group of 100 000 people who never eat bacon then you would expect 5 bowel cancers a year, Feed them daily bacon, increase the risk by 20%, that increases to 6 cases per year - that's an extra 2 cases a year in a town the size of Swindon.

20% sounds like a lot, but 20% of not much is very small. The risk of eating an occasional bacon sarnie? Depends what else you eat of course

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby jeral » Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:44 pm

Hmm. However good muesli etc is, I still reckon that if you eat meat a bacon sarnie for breakfast will set many people up for the day better "feel ready to go now" if an active person, or even if not, so I'd take the scares with a pinch of salt on my fried bread and dripping ;)

The reduced cured pork/ham intake stats could also be due to busier lives and more people who don't eat pigmeat.

If this cured meat scare has reared its head again, maybe butter and eggs will soon be bad for us again ;) TBH I thought the emphasis would have shifted by now onto all the baddies potentially in processed "plant meat" alternatives. If the plan was to get back to fewer and natural ingredients, that memo didn't reach some of the plant meat makers.

I don't think scares work, even legitimate ones like the egg or BSE (JCD) ones didn't until proven incontrovertibly.

Curiously or mistakenly perhaps, Ch.4 is running a campaign to "defeat the vegetables by eating them" . Why promote veg as an enemy? Surely it'd be better to market vegetables "because they're delicious". Albeit meaning they can be made to be delicious.

Surprisingly I thought, I counted up about 37 packs of different prepared veg bakes or bites from one supermarket online offering so they're certainly making an effort, even if the motive is high margin on prepared stuff.

Ramble ramble.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby dennispc » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:37 am

It’s difficult to take some of these studies seriously, perhaps I should’ve have posted this one,

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/s ... ealth-risk

Did anyone see headlines the other day about six cups of coffee a day, increases the chance of dementia?

As BM says, best not to fret about them.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Badger's Mate » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:10 pm

Again, even fairly simple concepts such as red or processed meat can be interpreted differently in different places, so pooling the information to obtain bigger data sets doesn't necessarily help. 'Sausages cause cancer' might make a nice headline, but some are made from cured meat and others not, some from pork and others not, the cures might or might not contain nitrates. The differences would seem to me to be pertinent.

I'm also somewhat concerned that a study into the health effects of meat eating was criticised for not taking into account the environmental issues. I hope this doesn't signal a revisionist trend to muddy the health effects of, for example tobacco, by noting that it causes all sorts of problems but is vegan and relatively low carbon.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Earthmaiden » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:00 pm

We have discussed intensive farming in the USA before and know that antibiotics are routinely given to animals just in case they've anything that needs clearing up in the final stages before slaughter rather than only if they need them. Not just in the USA of course.

A friend in the USA has just posted this in FB. " Just heard from a friend who was hospitalized for 3 days and just got out yesterday after she stopped at a restaurant and ate a meat based meal (she rarely eats meat). The hospital had to figure out what type of anti biotics the animal was given in order to treat her with antibiotics needed to help her".

Obviously I don't know the whole tale - but it makes you think.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Amyw » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:05 pm

I find the whole scientific /nutritional information a bit of a minefield at the best of times . Realistically , a diet free from as much processed food as possible is the best thing for us all .

I imagine as an online community with a strong interest in food , we eat much less processed /convenience food that the average . But chocolate , bread and most importantly wine :bounce: are all processed but highly essential in my opinion.

I think key to everything is balance . If you eat meat , have that little bit of bacon or sausages , just not every day . Include as much fruit and veg as you can, but don’t worry too much about how many different types or individual weight as long as they feature fairly prominently .

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby RockyBVI » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:20 am

I’ve only just discovered this thread. Really interesting. As Jeral, Sue and others have said people are too quick to cherry pick information from a study / survey and interpret it to suit what either they want to hear or is sensationalist.

I think by and large we eat well - loads of veg but neither of us is particularly a fruit lover. I love sausages and bacon so tend to ignore any advice on those I don’t want to hear :lol:

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Sloe-Gin » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:14 pm

I think we eat well, too, in that we never have takeaway burgers etc, just an annual curry takeout on my birthday, (usually!!) and few ready meals. I also never make/bake cakes or biscuits.
Having said that, since hub's diagnosis (and being off work) his weight has rocketed - he weighed himself this morning and got a shock. He is at risk of diabetes etc.
So, it's a 'diet' based on the Med, with lots of salads, pulses, fruit etc. He will not eat fish and neither of us are keen on nuts, but I reckon I can be quite creative while cutting out a lot of 'white' carbs, which have crept back into our diets. That and good ol' portion control.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby jeral » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:58 pm

Re "white carbs", I was more than surprised when I realised how many wheat flour based items are typical for many people daily. E.g. bread or cereal for breakfast; a sandwich or bread with soup etc for lunch; pasta or pizza or pie then cake for dinner; sandwich or biscuits/crackers for supper.

Since then I tried to cut out a lot of that white stuff, alternating more with rice and spud, or none if a meal's starchy veg or fruit is sufficient.

I'm trying to put weight on, but either way it can't be good to allow wheatflour carbs to dominate.

The so-called ancient grains (like spelt, buckwheat) are gaining ground, a lot of which are wheat free and therefore gluten free - an added bonus given the rise of wheat and gluten intolerances.

Just throwing this in as it's the first thing that came to me :)

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Earthmaiden » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:16 pm

It's the GI value that really matters IMO unless you are gluten intolerant.. I've changed to a lowish carb diet to control my blood sugar more and obviously the processed white stuff and sugar has to go except on special occasions but so do potatoes. White rice or normal pasta are rare treats. It has made me very much more aware of how bad and unbalanced many western diets have become and the very poor choices there are when eating out, especially in nice little coffee shops which do nothing but sickly cakes or bread based lunches.

I agree, jeral that not enough emphasis is placed on interesting whole grains.

Being in the position to watch a child of the 21st century grow up, it is so sad to see the once favourite broccoli and salmon relegated as the delights of school custard and chocolate are gradually revealed. Those sorts of things are so addictive.

I lost 2 stone without trying when I changed my diet which for me, was good thing. I learned a lot about the reasons one overeats without even realising. I'm not as interested in food as the things I love to cook are usually flour based. The only things I really miss are chips and ice cream, neither of which I had often anyway so still have very ocassionally. I have no idea if the change has had the desired effect but hope so.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Pampy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:22 pm

Interesting about GI foods. I saw a report a few weeks ago which "proved" that the difference caused by low/high GI foods isn't as big as is made out. It was a fairly comprehensive report produced by medical people but I have no idea if it was peer reviewed etc. Unfortunately, I can't find it now!
The NHS website has some interesting info too. https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questi ... -index-gi/

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:32 pm

The trouble with GI has always been that it is measured in isolation, finding what is the effect on blood glucose of eating 100g of the food alone, unadulterated and that's not how normal eating works, we eat more complex meals and snacks

If you eat rice it usually has some kind of stew or gravy or dressing with it

You don't usually sit down and eat 100g of bread with no spread or dip, and bread-and-butter has a much lower GI than dry bread as the butter slows the breakdown and absorption of the starch

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Earthmaiden » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:59 pm

Thank you Sue. I didn't know that and it's good news.

It's sometimes hard to keep up with various, what seem like learned, opinions (I.e. not any old person on social media or in a magazine). I do feel, however, that if you adhere to low GI and sensible amounts of the various food groups much of the time that it will probably do more good than harm, and lead to less temptation.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:30 pm

All these measurements have a use, GI, the much maligned BMI whatever, apart from a few that are pure fantasy of course

But people get carried away and decide they are The Answer

There is no Answer, apart of course from 42 :D

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby liketocook » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:00 pm

When my Dad was having problems with unstable diabetes (as much as anything coming to terms with catering for himself after my Mum died) low GI was very much "in". His dietitian was of the view that it had it's place but more in making choices in balancing his diet so that if he really fancied a banana not to have mash or other high GI food the same day etc. That seemed to me to be a sensible approach, fairly straightforward to apply and did let him build in odd things he might really crave on what was for a while a fairly strict regime until it stabilised. As you say Sue these things have their place in helping people make decisions but very much part of a wider jig saw.
Of course the only "Answer" is 42 :lol:

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Earthmaiden » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:22 am

I attended a gathering yesterday which, I admit, had a few types with rather 'alternatve' beliefs. I am, however, always interested to hear what people have to say.

A woman had been delivering a talk and was having difficulty hearing the questions asked at the end. 'Oh dear', she said, 'I can't hear well today, I've been eating dairy'.

I hadn't heard this one before and looked it up on various internet pages later. It seems that it is a 'thing' and explains possible reasons. I had no idea. I don't think I know anyone who has tried giving up dairy for this purpose - have any of you?

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby scullion » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:40 am

i thought the dairy debate had been scotched a while back - or was she stuffing cheese in her ears‽‽
Last edited by scullion on Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Earthmaiden » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:50 am

Cheesy ears don't sound good. I'm not sure this is exactly the same as the mucus thing. I remember the popular singer (not Elaine Page, the other one whose name I can't think of), saying that steering clear of dairy made a real difference to her singing ability.

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby PatsyMFagan » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:56 am

Do you mean Barbara Dickson ?

Not sure if it was an urban myth, but it used to be considered that eating dairy increased mucus in the nose and throat, so that might have been the reasoning

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Re: Healthy Eating

Postby Sloe-Gin » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:04 pm

Not cheese in the ear, but I quite often have butter fingers

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