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A scary recipe

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A scary recipe

Postby cherrytree » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:14 pm

I was somewhat disconcerted this morning when I found the supplement in the Cumberland News food pages to find a pretzel recipe containing caustic soda as an ingredient. The newspaper always has a couple of pages plugging a book of recipes that are usually by unknown writers often American and often containing ingredients that are impossible to come by on this rural mono cultural county. This time though it’s by James Naughton a former contestant in the Great British Bake Off.
I checked elsewhere and yes, caustic soda is an authentic ingredient from Germany in pretzel recipes but not always.
The thought of most people messing around with caustic soda makes my blood run cold. I actually think this is hugely irresponsible of the paper to publish this and I hope that everyone ignores it and turns the page.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby PatsyMFagan » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:27 pm

I recall seeing a tv programme about making pretzels and noting that Caustic soda was used ... It's also an ingredient in soap isn't it ?

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:36 pm

Yes, the Hairy Bakers did a lot about pretzels, and basically said, don't use caustic soda at home, bicarbonate won't give quite the same effect but works

This Paul Hollywood recipe uses bicarbonate

https://git.macropus.org/bbc-food/www.b ... 71296.html

Yes caustic soda is sodium hydroxide, aka lye (which is what bakers usually call it) and is used for soap making and unblocking drains

Apart from anything else, where do you get food grade sodium hydroxide?

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby aero280 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:46 pm

I have read that you can use sodium carbonate (washing soda) instead of Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda) to make pretzels crisp.

But one pretzel recipe I have, just uses egg wash to glaze. It's just for crisping the surface really.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:57 pm

Again - is washing soda food grade?

I'm a great fan odf the stuff as a household cleaner and alternative to expensive water softeners but not that close to food

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Badger's Mate » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:10 pm

I imagine it must be possible to get hold of food grade sodium carbonate, but washing soda isn't it. Stick to bicarb.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby aero280 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:25 pm

Yes, i doubt that washing soda is food grade, but it's supposed to be OK to make it by baking Sodium Bicarbonate until it changes.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby ZeroCook » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:32 pm

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Is it called for in liquid or powder form? Sodium hydroxide is a lye.

If using any types of lye, really important to use food grade.

Sodium carbonate is quite a common lye ingredient in certain types of Asian noodles and is commonly sold in Asian food shops and is also known as alkaline water. It can also be DIY'ed as I found on seriouseats when looking for recipes/methods for making Asian noodles last year. It's also known as baked baking soda, baking soda being 'Merican for bicarb. Seriouseats has a recipe and good guide to the chemistry and use.

I use bicarb for boiling bagels, which gives the characteristic flavour and finish. Guessing that pretzels are probably similar unless the soda actually goes into the dough.

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/201 ... -soda.html

https://www.seriouseats.com/2018/11/the ... -home.html

Edited to correct/differentiate lyes. Thought OP/cherrytree planned to make pretzels. 8-)
Last edited by ZeroCook on Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby jeral » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:42 pm

I wondered what commercial pretzels listed. These "Penn State" brand pretzels (Waitrose) does list sodium hydroxide:
https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/ ... 1128-87-88

Perhaps a skin is formed on the dough beforehand via proper stretching/rolling so that nothings stays on or seeps through it? Either that or it's modified of baddies or so little is used per vat to be no worse than the residue from anti-bac cleaners. I doubt it's easy to buy caustic soda now (age restriction) + skull and crossbone hazard warning etc.

PS ZeroCook's just in - will view links.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:57 pm

The problem is not commercial use of a sodium hydroxide solution for dipping pretzels - i they are dipped in a boiling solution is sodium hydroxide which reacts with the dough to give that characteristic dark brown glazed finish, there's little or no free (unreacted) sodium hydroxide left on the pretzel when baked

And of course when done commercially these days it's usually done by machinery so doesn't splash on skin or in eyes - I have seen and treated caustic soda burns and don't recommend them

The problem is in encouraging people who won't necessarily understand how nasty hot solutions of caustic soda can be to slosh them about in their own kitchens and around food

It is used for diy soap making, but people tend not to mix that with food so are probably more cautious

It seems much more sensible to recommend the use of bicarb for amateur home cooks since it works fine

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby ZeroCook » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:10 pm

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Chemists, Stokey, apart from the obvious chemical composition, what is the effective difference between a sodium hydroxide solution i.e. a lye solution and a solution made with sodium carbonate/baked baking soda or with wood ash or with plain bicarb for cooking purposes? Asking because I use a plant ash solution to remove the cellulose skin from corn kernels to nixtamalise whereas commercial outfits use sodium hydroxide. Among other things ...

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 pm

First sodium hydroxide in water separates so it is a sodium ion (Na+) and a hydroxide ion (OH-) - quite a lot of heat is released when you dissolve the pure chemical in water, it can be quite striking if you tip in too much at once and it boils over (nearly every lab technician has done this)

Sodium carbonate dissolves as 2 sodium ions and one carbonate (CO3 --)

Bicarb is sodium hydrogen carbonate and you get Na+, H+ and Co3 --

As you come down the list you get less and less energy released as you add it to water and the molecule separates and you get a less strongly alkaline solutions, which is not quite so eager to combine with acid or anything else , and is certainly less able to burn your skin or to break down fats and oils to make a soap

Well, wood ash solution will contain all of the above, but also a lot of potassium which replaces the sodium, and can make it even more reactive. The exact mix will depend on the type of wood and how it is handled, which is probably why commercial process prefer pure sodium hydroxide, if you weigh out a kilo of that you know exactly what you have got!

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Pampy » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:51 pm

Stokey Sue wrote:First sodium hydroxide in water separates so it is a sodium ion (Na+) and a hydroxide ion (OH-) - quite a lot of heat is released when you dissolve the pure chemical in water, it can be quite striking if you tip in too much at once and it boils over (nearly every lab technician has done this)


One of the first things that I learned in the lab was to be VERY careful when making it up!

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby ZeroCook » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:18 pm

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Great thanks.

For practical purposes and for cooking, reactions aside, are we talking basically about differing levels of alkalinity or are there real qualitative differences? Does, for example, the use of bicarb vs sodium carbonate vs caustic soda with water to boil bagels or pretzels cause the same sort of molecular reaction in the dough surface? Meaning, are they all basically doing the same thing?

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:46 pm

I think it's hydroxide ions that gelatinise the starch which is what forms the glaze - and those are present in all alkaline solutions, not just sodium or potassium hydroxide but carbohydrate chemistry is not my thing, so not 100% sure what goes on

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby cherrytree » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:33 pm

I’m going to ring the Cumberland News on Monday and have a chat. Looking at the two pages in the supplement I’m sure that this is a syndicated article and is probably in many other local papers.
Thank you all for your comments.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby ZeroCook » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 pm

.

Thanks Stokey. They're all lyes - i.e. alkalis. Seems to be a matter of strength and degree. Full strength industrial caustic soda/NaOH seems generally interchangeable with other weaker lyes for most cooking purposes. And a lot safer in those forms.

It 's not uncommon as a food preparation ingredient, though I for one have never used it. Having said that, it does need to be used with a lot of caution, but does seem to be quite easily available. Have used it for drains. Also a common cause of a lot of chemical accidents/injuries it seems. Commonly known to be used by murderers to get rid of bodies - as seen in films, read in books and documented in massacres and worse :evil:

Interesting history - from soda ash to full on industrial production. I'll stick to my plant ashes for nixtamalisation. :geek:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_(chemistry)

History

Sodium hydroxide was first prepared by soap makers. A procedure for making sodium hydroxide appeared as part of a recipe for making soap in an Arab book of the late 13th century: Al-mukhtara` fi funun min al-suna` (Inventions from the Various Industrial Arts), which was compiled by al-Muzaffar Yusuf ibn `Umar ibn `Ali ibn Rasul (d. 1295), a king of Yemen. The recipe called for passing water repeatedly through a mixture of alkali (Arabic: al-qily, where qily is ash from saltwort plants, which are rich in sodium ; hence alkali was impure sodium carbonate) and quicklime (calcium oxide, CaO), whereby a solution of sodium hydroxide was obtained. European soap makers also followed this recipe. When in 1791 the French chemist and surgeon Nicolas Leblanc (1742–1806) patented a process for mass-producing sodium carbonate, natural "soda ash" (impure sodium carbonate that was obtained from the ashes of plants that are rich in sodium)[50]:p36 was replaced by this artificial version.:p46 However, by the 20th century, the electrolysis of sodium chloride had become the primary method for producing sodium hydroxide.




.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Badger's Mate » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:42 am

I don't think there's a whole lot to add from here, sodium hydroxide is usually found in the home in oven cleaners, drain unblockers and some paint strippers. I'll repeat my earlier injunction to stick to bicarb for pretzels.

I use wood ashes on the plot as a potassium-rich alternative to liming. As such I was surprised to see Monty Don putting it on a pot of blueberries last night. Mind you, we had just got back from the pub so I might have misunderstood! :D

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby Stokey Sue » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:02 am

ZeroCook wrote:They're all lyes - i.e. alkalis

No! They are all alkalis! All lyes are alkalis but not all alkalis are lye

Lyes are alkaline but no chemist would describe these chemically pure alkalis as lyes

I would regard lye as a historical term for the mixture of alkaline substances produced from wood ash or similar processes, which is how I’ve known it for the last 50 years.

Googling around I appreciate that the term lye is still used to some extent in crafts such as soap making, tanning, and baking; especially in the US and to a lesser extent perhaps colloquially there.

But as a scientist it’s not a term I’d ever use outside of a niche craft setting.

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Re: A scary recipe

Postby scullion » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:34 am

i use sodium hydroxide for soap making. i mix it with the water, outside, with a bottle of vinegar close by.
the stuff i buy says it's pure so would possibly be food grade.
i also have potassium hydroxide pellets. for liquid soap making (they are also one of the treatments for verrucae).
if you know the risk and are careful of what you're doing, you minimise any possible damage.

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