pickled red cabbage vs sauerkraut/kimchi

[KeenCook2 Profile]

Today's Observer mag had a small para about the benefits of fermented cabbage in the fight against covid - I was wondering if the same would apply to other sorts of pickled cabbage?

I imagine the difference between "pickled" and "fermented" would mean that sauerkraut was better for you than typical pickled red cabbage?

Apologies if this has already been discussed in the various conversations about kimchi etc.

[ZeroCook Profile]

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It does - it's the lacto-fermentation that does it. Vinegar pickles aren't fermented.


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[Stokey Sue Profile]

Goes into science mode.
Screams very, very, loudly

Where in the Observer is this piece? I am a digital subscriber but that doesn’t seem to give me access to a proper index or any search facility And who is the author please?

To repeat the basics:-
No specific food “can help in the fight against Covid”

A healthy, complete, diet suited to you is the best you can do as this will help you be as healthy as you can be

People who have healthy diets tend to have a good variety of gut microbes, which seem to contribute to being healthy

Foods produced using either wild or cultured microbes, such as yogurt, kombucha, sauerkraut and kimchi can increase the variety of gut microbes

Most sauerkraut in the UK is sold in jars, cans or sealed pouches and has been pasteurised to stop it from spoiling. This kills all bacteria good and bad, so it’s tasty and a good source of fibre etc but not gut microbes. You need fresh sauerkraut - some of the stuff in chiller cabinets is ‘live” like yogurt

Pickled cabbage is made by pouring hot vinegar over salted cabbage, so the cabbage is never fermented and there are no interesting microbes = bacteria

The best use of sauerkraut imo is in a Reuben sandwich

[Suelle Profile Website]

Googling turns up reports based on one study published without peer review:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200 ... ality.aspx

Quote from the link:

A pre-print version of the paper is available on the server medRxiv*, while the article undergoes peer review. However, this paper is a preliminary report and should not be regarded as conclusive or established information

If there is any link between the two, it's based on cultures/communities where individuals have eaten fermented food for all their lives, so have a history and inheritance of differently adapted gut bacteria. I wouldn't expect suddenly switching to eating kimchi and yogurt would give an individual the same benefits.

[Seatallan Profile]

Mind you, on the flip side, isn't there apparently a tentative link between cultures that eat a lot of fermented food and a higher prevalence of stomach cancer? Sure I've read that somewhere.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Japan has (or had when I needed to know) the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world, thought to be related to the nitrites/nitrates in the large amounts of pickles the Japanese eat

I think sauerkraut is possibly a different kind of fermented pickle but I’ve not been into the biochemistry

I recommend the (very long, subtitled) 1950s film by Kurosawa, Mr Watanabe and the Playground. Mr Watanabe has gastric cancer and parts are bleak, but it’s a lovely film

[karadekoolaid Profile]

Goes into science mode.
Screams very, very, loudly

Hear, hear, Sue! ( from a non-science mode).
It sometimes gets a bit tedious when the World is told that X product cures cancer, Y product cures heart disease, and Z product will make you live until you are 120.
Folks over here are dumping turmeric (powdered, fresh, grated, liquidised) into everything over here at the moment.
As the discussion continues in "Healthy Eating", it´s far, far more complex than that.

[KeenCook2 Profile]

Sue, I wanted to attach the link but it was a little "one more thing ..." at the end of Emma Beddington's Boomers v Milennials on p 5 of the mag. Only the main article seemed to be available - at least, to a non-subscriber.

Anyway,hopefully you'll be able to read this photo. I didn't manage to rotate it I'm afraid.
Edited to delete the un-rotated pic and replace ...

[Pampy Profile]

It sometimes gets a bit tedious when the World is told that X product cures cancer, Y product cures heart disease, and Z product will make you live until you are 120.
Folks over here are dumping turmeric (powdered, fresh, grated, liquidised) into everything over here at the moment.
As the discussion continues in "Healthy Eating", it´s far, far more complex than that.

Though she's an intelligent person, I despair at my sister sometimes. She says that her husband has been told by his orthopaedic consultant that turmeric cures diabetes. Now if that was the case, surely the NHS would have picked up on it and would be prescribing it instead of the vastly expensive medications that they currently use? And also, wouldn't diabetes be less prevalent amongst the Southern Asian community who use more turmeric in their cooking that westerners usually do?

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Thanks for posting the newspaper piece KeenCook2, it still masked no sense to me

Do we know who the author is?

“Preliminary results” - I always wait for the full data

“Countries…” did they control for other country level variables, like urban vs rural? Alcohol consumption? Protein intake? There have been a few of these country level analyses in the last 6 months, all I have seen have turned out not to stand up to scrutiny

The projected effect on ACE-2 inhibitors is possible but it’s one hell of a long shot and would take months if not years to prove
I am not personally convinced by anything that relies on “antioxidants” - as a biochemist I doubt cells work with any old antioxidant that comes along, any more than as cooks we use any old spice, we want cumin or turmeric or pepper, cells want vitamin C or vitamin E or some other particular chemical

In 3 years someone may have convincing evidence. At the moment, if you like it sauerkraut is nice with salt beef or almost any sausage from bratwurst to bangers. Or just rösti

[karadekoolaid Profile]

She says that her husband has been told by his orthopaedic consultant that turmeric cures diabetes.

Absolutely, Pampy. It´s utterly frustrating, but there´s little we can actually do about it.
I reckon a single malt whisky cures most things...

[Suelle Profile Website]

Sue - I posted a link after your first post in which the author of the original paper is named (not sure if there's a link too). If you Google, all the articles about this are based on that one 'study'.

[PatsyMFagan Profile]

She says that her husband has been told by his orthopaedic consultant that turmeric cures diabetes.

Absolutely, Pampy. It´s utterly frustrating, but there´s little we can actually do about it.
I reckon a single malt whisky cures most things...

I thought it was Turmeric for RA/Osteoarthritis and Cinnamon for diabetes.

I just wish I enjoyed a single malt whisky - I'm afraid it's only vodka or gin in this house.. a gin and tonic with a shot of Limoncello hit the spot yesterday - I lost an hour and must have snored my head off

[Renee Profile]

I did the same the other night Pat and missed half a programme!!!

[Stokey Sue Profile]

Sue - I posted a link after your first post in which the author of the original paper is named (not sure if there's a link too). If you Google, all the articles about this are based on that one 'study'.

Sorry Sue - I kind of skipped past that as I was focusing on finding the Observer article. And I don’t always spot hyperlinks

That’s actually a pre-print I’ve seen before, and which has not been well received by working scientists I know. It will be interesting to see what the final paper looks like after peer review, if in fact it emerges as a final paper

Even if the authors are correct in every detail I agree there’s nothing in it to suggest that adding fermented food to a U.K. diet will do any good

[Pepper Pig Profile]

So how about foods for anxiety? This came up on my Twitter feed.

https://nutritioninyork.co.uk/top-5-foods-for-anxiety/

[Stokey Sue Profile]

So how about foods for anxiety? This came up on my Twitter feed.

https://nutritioninyork.co.uk/top-5-foods-for-anxiety/

As far as I know she’s right about what nutrients each food supplies, and undoubtedly you need them all


But whether you can use foods to target any condition in this way is another thing, most dietitians seem to think not. If you at present eating a good mixed diet you are unlikely to be short of any of these, as far as I know

[KeenCook2 Profile]

I thought it was Turmeric for RA/Osteoarthritis and Cinnamon for diabetes.

And OH has been told that turmeric is for prostate cancer ...

I hadn't heard about the cinnamon for diabetes, Pat

Ah, ASDA delivery just arrived, see you in a bit ...

[Badger's Mate Profile]

I was going to do a jokey post in the style of a bloke in the pub pointing out that it stands to reason, given that Germany and Korea have had fewer deaths from Covid 19 than us, that it must be the sauerkraut and kimchi. Unfortunately that seems to be substance of the theory.

I hurt my back about 18 years ago, carrying an empty water butt. It took approximately 300 pints of bitter to cure it.

[Pampy Profile]

I thought it was Turmeric for RA/Osteoarthritis and Cinnamon for diabetes.

Yes, I've heard of those too. I cook quite a lot with both cinnamon and turmeric yet I've got bad osteoarthritis and am diabetic!