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The chlorinated chicken debate

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Lusciouslush » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:10 pm

Pampy wrote:Which? have a petition to ask for UK food standards to be upheld in any US trade deal. Sign here - https://action.which.co.uk/page/s/save- ... s-petition


Duly signed Pampy………!
BTW when I read........................
Pampy wrote:I received an e-mail from Booths

Just now - I read - 'I received an email from Boris' :o :lol: :lol:

Not getting my mince pies tested anytime soon.......................!!!!

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby smitch » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:14 pm

Lusciouslush wrote:
Pampy wrote:Which? have a petition to ask for UK food standards to be upheld in any US trade deal. Sign here - https://action.which.co.uk/page/s/save- ... s-petition


Duly signed Pampy………!
BTW when I read........................
Pampy wrote:I received an e-mail from Booths

Just now - I read - 'I received an email from Boris' :o :lol: :lol:

Not getting my mince pies tested anytime soon.......................!!!!


Not planning a trip to Barnard Castle then? :lol: :lol:

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Lusciouslush » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:49 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby jeral » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:58 pm

Pampy wrote:...
I live in an area with a very high Asian population and most of the local takeaways (and some big ones too, like KFC) now use halal-certified food.
...

Halal meat is big business needless to say so KFC, Tesco etc and smaller localised supermarkets will no doubt buy industrially reared, killed and processed meats. Not stunning the animals used to be the biggest complaint against halal, although much is stunned now and can still be certified halal.

Wet markets exist everywhere; not necessarily small ones on street corners but small farmers market products will likely qualify as being prepared in wet areas. They've existed for thousands of years so can't be inherently bad, just the bad apples among them, same as for industrial ones.

If hygiene is an issue, it's surprising that food and ice cream street vans are allowed. The mistake in the UK re restos and fast food outlets was decimating food inspectors, so making an inspection every five years if that thus leaving the door wide open for sloppiness.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby aero280 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:49 pm

dennispc wrote:If you want to know how your MP voted, here’s the list.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... hN.twitter


I don't need to look at that any more. I did once, but our MP is a career "Yes Man". He's said "Yes" so often, he's now a minister.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Earthmaiden » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:53 pm

jeral wrote:
Wet markets exist everywhere; not necessarily small ones on street corners but small farmers market products will likely qualify as being prepared in wet areas. They've existed for thousands of years so can't be inherently bad, just the bad apples among them, same as for industrial ones.


This was what interested me about the article, which I thought was well balanced, there are pros and cons. I did a bit if reading up afterwards as I did wonder if such places were legal here. I remember when rules were tightened some years ago which put a lot of small concerns out of business and creatures had to be transported further for slaughter which was traumatic for them. It seems that creatures may be slaughtered 'at home' if eaten only by the family and if they have a certificate to say they may. What I do not think is legal is to offer a choice of live animals in one place (I.e. a market) to be killed by any method there and then as in the article. There's a lot that goes on in back streets now but I wondered if it might get more lax without the EU along with thec standards we've discussed in this thread.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pampy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:24 am

jeral wrote:Halal meat is big business needless to say so KFC, Tesco etc and smaller localised supermarkets will no doubt buy industrially reared, killed and processed meats. Not stunning the animals used to be the biggest complaint against halal, although much is stunned now and can still be certified halal.


Unfortunately, where I live a lot of halal slaughtered animals aren't stunned - there's been a huge kerfuffle because the county council made a decision not to use halal meat in school dinners because most of their suppliers couldn't/wouldn't guarantee that the animals had been stunned before slaughter.
One KFC in the area started to use halal chicken a few years ago but there was such a backlash against it that they reverted to non-halal. All the others use it though.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby jeral » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:36 pm

Earthmaiden, thanks for checking the law and telling us. It's something I tend to do but whatever laws we have now can easily be changed (with a majority government) to suit whatever might be embodied in a new trade agreement, whilst simultaneously repealing contrary EU ones. The Which? (NFU) petition fails in this regard by referring to laws or rules rather than current or existing or EU ones.

The impetus for live markets would logically come from within the UK as I'm sure even the Tories would object to live chickens from across the pond, so now I'd ask "Are live markets more likely if the rules are changed?" Have to wait to see if and how changed although since trade agreements don't happen overnight it's doubtful any time soon. Might be irrelevant though, perhaps tell more why you say you "know this sort of thing goes on on an illegal basis (and even possibly with a few tweaks, on a legal basis too)".

Pampy, I looked into stunning animals a while back and there seem to be genuine pros and cons. From memory, the main con is not doing it properly (right place or for long enough due to swift throughput), followed by not stunning heart and head simultaneously.

Also some tests on the meat showed more muscle tightening in stunned meat, the conclusion being that the animals cringed from the pain. It wasn't present in the clean swift throat-cut meat. Stunning them makes us feel better though and that's what seems to count most. What people en masse will buy is arguably the determinant, if they know what they're buying that is or maybe don't care if cheap and tasty.

A potentially worrying thing in the Guardian article was the conditions in which the live animals are housed before slaughter, given street corners aren't farms where animals can be taken "home" daily if not sold. I'm saying "animals" but presumably it can only mean poultry. Even so, from memory I think caging hens is not due to be outlawed until 2025 in the UK so pot kettle?

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pampy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:20 pm

jeral wrote:Pampy, I looked into stunning animals a while back and there seem to be genuine pros and cons. From memory, the main con is not doing it properly (right place or for long enough due to swift throughput), followed by not stunning heart and head simultaneously.

Also some tests on the meat showed more muscle tightening in stunned meat, the conclusion being that the animals cringed from the pain. It wasn't present in the clean swift throat-cut meat. Stunning them makes us feel better though and that's what seems to count most. What people en masse will buy is arguably the determinant, if they know what they're buying that is or maybe don't care if cheap and tasty.

I can only go by what the majority of vets. and animal welfare experts in the UK (and, I think, most western European nations) advocate.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby jeral » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm

That's the way people distance themselves isn't it? I mean stunning might be preferred because animals smelling death are likely to try to stampede away from the location, or impossible to manage by the slaughterhouse handlers as much as it is to do with animal "comfort". Experts are funded to find simple solutions to potentially costly problems.

Besides, once an animal is rendered motionless, it will clearly look at ease by observation.

I wouldn't mind having a chat with a panel of knowledgeable vets who tend to be one-one-one with each animal, or maybe the RCVS has published online papers...

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Stokey Sue » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:06 pm

Before we all get carried away - surely the point of live markets in China and elsewhere, especially in hotter climates, is mainly freshness of products, in a country where refrigeration is widely available I think anyone planning to open one would be blocked by justifiable nimbyism
Even if they were made legal(unlikely) they'd still need local licensing which they wouldn't get

People are squeamish. I have (once) seen halal slaughter without stunning, and it wasn't as gruesome as you might think, being done to a single animal (a goat) outdoors and away from other animals, by someone who knew how.. Oviously, not in this country

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby dennispc » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:04 pm

No-one noticed, last November the US Meat Export Federation signed an export agreement with the EU.

https://www.aginfo.net/report/44523/Lan ... -Agreement

And a Scottish butcher, John Davidson(?) is dealing direct and is importing American beef. I've got a link somewhere, can't find where it's saved. :roll:

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Earthmaiden » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:42 pm

Agree with all you say Sue. The reason I found the article interesting was that there was food for thought from all angles. With the exception of not killing animals for food full stop, deciding where boundaries should be isn't always clear cut. I was also interested that the practice was lawful in the USA. By keeping it all within a market it does offer the opportunity to carry out processes according to law including cleanliness and disposal of waste.

jeral - I think there is enough evidence from what one sees and hears and reads in local press that there are backstreet dealers in meat and animals for everyday food and for such things as ritual slaughter who do not follow the law. Every so often they are caught.

I wondered how the creatures not sold at market were kept too. I doubt they go home to rolling green hills but might be humanely housed, it could be part of the requirements of the whole process.

dennispc - it would be interesting to understand the quality of the beef described.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby miss mouse » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:25 pm

dennispc wrote:No-one noticed, last November the US Meat Export Federation signed an export agreement with the EU.

https://www.aginfo.net/report/44523/Lan ... -Agreement


Is that a real website? or a fake? Is that cowboy hat real? Is it hormone beef? I am still convinced that Americans are large because of the adulterated food. Australian beef is also 40% hormone and they are getting pretty large as well as is Canadian meat and Canadians ditto. I could never be described as 'skinny' but am not that large yet, I really fear for the future of us all.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby dennispc » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:02 pm


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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby dennispc » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:12 pm

EM, only a cynic would believe it wasn’t of the highest quality. :lol:

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Earthmaiden » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:24 pm

:lol:. fingers crossed that standards don't slide downhill fast after Dec 31st
.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby jeral » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:15 am

The following is a similar report. I note that the EU allows only 45,000 tonnes of beef imports in its quota before a full tariff kicks in. The US/EU agreement will allocate 35 tonnes to the US over seven years. As the 45,000t quota will not increase, presumably other countries are left scrabbling for the remainder of the quota and must be rather cross.

I wonder if the UK will become a country joining the scrabble, because, on the same website is a reported leak of the NZ/EU proposed trade agreement in which NZ beef doesn't fare well. No doubt the EU could just say it's part of their negotiating stance at this stage. The EU's proposed tariff structure is interesting.

US: https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/ ... s-welcomed
NZ: https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/ ... land-trade

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby dennispc » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:38 am

Jeral, I noticed your first link was last June, I’d found the following dated August,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... 20%5BNBEEF.

But you can get American beef in this country, if you fancy 4kg of good ‘ol best quality American brisket, here you go, £47.

https://www.johndavidsons.com/

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pampy » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:07 pm

Some more information on the debate https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/07/uk ... ters010820

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