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The chlorinated chicken debate

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby KeenCook2 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:11 pm

jeral wrote:KeenCook2, the short answer at the moment is that no-one knows what will happen.

At the moment, we are still bound by EU rules, and our own, and will be until we finally leave the EU entirely. We will still be bound because EU rules are embodied into our law but only until such time as the government changes them. With a whopping majority in parliament, this government won't have much difficulty in doing what it wants. I think removing EU law has to be done by primary law rather than statutory instrument, but it's probably not that simple.

Of course, whatever regulations are in place, it doesn't mean there won't be hoodwinking going on with labelling and sources, either by accident, negligence or design.


That all really worries me :thumbsdown

But if we want to continue to export anything to the EU, we will have to abide by their regs? In which case we'll be letting in inferior produce but still having to stick to the higher welfare standards in order to be able to export?

I guess that's what the farmers are worried about - the double standards, with the cheap stuff coming in that they can't compete with because they can't lower their own standards?

In which case what is the point of concluding any sort of trade treaty with the US that creates that situation????? Arghhhh ......... :? :?

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby jeral » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:49 pm

KeenCook2 wrote:That all really worries me :thumbsdown

But if we want to continue to export anything to the EU, we will have to abide by their regs? In which case we'll be letting in inferior produce but still having to stick to the higher welfare standards in order to be able to export?

EU standards will still need to be met if exporting to the EU, yes, however it does mean there'll still be a market for our goods, provided the EU doesn't apply tariffs outpricing UK goods vs their own. A trade deal with the US is a long way from being agreed and signed so it would be scaremongering to suggest that our markets would be flooded out - we have to wait and see and hope lobbying to avoid that is successful.

KeenCook2 wrote:I guess that's what the farmers are worried about - the double standards, with the cheap stuff coming in that they can't compete with because they can't lower their own standards?

Yes, although the government is hoping that new markets both in the US and elsewhere will be found for our goods, irrespective of imports.

KeenCook2 wrote:In which case what is the point of concluding any sort of trade treaty with the US that creates that situation????? Arghhhh ......... :? :?


It depends what we can trade that we don't already, e.g. more financial services to the US would likely take precedence even if it meant a few farmers going to the wall if the country would be better off on balance.

But, don't forget that once a non-EU-member, the UK would be free to offer state subsidies to industries within the UK, if it were to choose to, and help keep prices reasonably affordable so as to maintain market share, jobs and businesses overall. (State intervention is currently disallowed, despite notable exceptions being allowed for some EU countries. Bafflingly, or simply flouting their own rules when it suits them?)

Think positive: No doubt more small niche markets will be created, being on a newfound high, prior to lockdown at least and maybe many more given likely job losses. Also some supermarkets will probably declare themselves chlorine-free to capture customers who do have disposable income post Covid 19. Veggie food would probably increase as an alternative too for people who refuse poor quality.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby KeenCook2 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:20 pm

Thank you jeral, I'm gradually getting there!!

jeral wrote: Veggie food would probably increase as an alternative too for people who refuse poor quality.


I think that may well be the direction we choose!!

In the meantime I just signed this Greenpeace petition. I don't think I already signed it - it didn't tell me I had, at any rate!

https://bit.ly/2MKZEfG

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby cherrytree » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:20 pm

I wish I shared your optimism.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby jeral » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:15 am

cherrytree, well, I'm certainly not a defeatist, more a realist. Also, one thing that's in the public's favour at the moment is that well known aim of any Tory government to retain power at virtually any cost.

Now with a huge majority by gaining a significant number of red wall voters, they know they're dancing with death if they betray that vote. Voters will stand for being lied to, but betrayal? never, so the Tories might well go as far as they can but too far and even their own backbenchers start to rebel.

Besides which, if the EU thinks we'll give up and take to our beds and weep because they tell us we're doomed then they don't know British people very well.

Here's a thought, what if there's no intention of allowing chlorinated chicken, hence all shout hurrah when finally announced at the last minute, whilst all along the relatively unheard of feedlot hormone'd cattle was intended as a mainstay import in the deal? By then, it'd be too late for the public to assimilate that and they'd probably just say, "Well at least it's not chlorinated chicken." In truth, that might be a good thing, given the amount of chicken we eat in the UK.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Earthmaiden » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:51 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... deal-uk-eu

As has been mentioned in previous posts, most people know it's not just about chicken. The wider problem is summed up well in the last paragraph of this piece. If we cut loose from the EU we (arguably) need the US and they have the power to walk all over us and whoever is in Government will have (and should already have) quite a dilemma on their hands.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pampy » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:52 am

jeral wrote:EU standards will still need to be met if exporting to the EU, yes, however it does mean there'll still be a market for our goods, provided the EU doesn't apply tariffs outpricing UK goods vs their own.

This is still being argued over - the UK says it won't necessarily adhere to EU standards, whereas the EU says that in that case, there'll be no trade. I understand that it's a big sticking point in the current negotiations.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby KeenCook2 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:25 pm

Earthmaiden wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/chlorinated-chicken-foods-us-trade-deal-uk-eu

As has been mentioned in previous posts, most people know it's not just about chicken. The wider problem is summed up well in the last paragraph of this piece. If we cut loose from the EU we (arguably) need the US and they have the power to walk all over us and whoever is in Government will have (and should already have) quite a dilemma on their hands.


Arghh, EM, ghastly, ghastly prospect ...

I've often wondered if the sweet potatoes we get, which only ever seem to be imported from the USA, are GM. It doesn't say anything in the labelling ....

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pepper Pig » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:55 pm

More things to worry about if this is to be believed.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... deal-uk-eu

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby dennispc » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:31 pm

Followed Earthmaiden's link to the Guardian article, but carried on through the Comments section - always a useful exercise I find.

Someone posted that US quality is far above the UK and EU countries by this definition:

https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index

which certainly shows US as being third in the world and UK 17th. Shock Horror I thought so kept on digging.

Here's the definition of food security,

"The FAO defines food security as when all people, at all times, have physical, social and economic access to sufficient, safe and nutritious food, which meets their dietary needs and food preferences for an active and healthy life."

Which means I think, getting enough food to suit an individual's needs when they want it. And who decides how safe and nutritious food is? It's possible then in the US, to eat food which may be barely nutritious but eating more of it to reach the standard.

I'd love to know how any country stands on biosecurity standards. As an aside I read the other day that the average UK chicken farm has a higher standard of biosecurity than the average care home.

And I'm sure we can see many a UK politician using the food security index to convince us there's no problem.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Stokey Sue » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:50 pm

KeenCook2 wrote:I've often wondered if the sweet potatoes we get, which only ever seem to be imported from the USA, are GM. It doesn't say anything in the labelling ....


Would it matter?

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby KeenCook2 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:01 pm

Idle curiousity, Sue!
I'm not very up on the GM debate :oops:

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby smitch » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:17 pm

I know there are a lot of issues with 'food deserts' in the US, where large amounts of people have limited or no access to healthy, fresh food. This is a particular problem in lower income, inner city areas https://moveforhunger.org/harsh-reality-food-deserts-america#:~:text=In%20rural%20America%2C%20a%20food,%2C%20living%20in%20food%20deserts.%E2%80%9D

In the UK, over a million people are estimated to live in a food desert https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/social-sciences/news/12-million-living-uk-food-deserts-studys-shows#:~:text=1.2%20million%20living%20in%20UK%20food%20deserts%2C%20studys%20shows,neighbourhoods%20across%20the%20United%20Kingdom.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Earthmaiden » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:21 pm

jeral - I hope that your optimism proves sound. I certainly think/hope a lot of what you say could happen.

I feel that food security is certainly the tool that will be used by politicians to try to convince us that we need the kind of food under discussion from the USA. We have relied on being part of the EU for a long time and severed ties with countries which previously supplied food (usually what had been the colonies) to keep us going all the year round. Our population is far to high for us to be able to guarantee even basic food security without new agreements and the USA is ready and waiting to jump in and fix it. I'm not sure that there are many places other than the EU and USA who can offer us food security without us shopping around for select bits from a variety of countries in addition to what we can produce. I think the latter is what many envisaged would be the case - but how much easier to just do one deal without worrying about the small details and not involving the EU - it depends what % of the population feels strongly enough about the down sides. Smitch makes a very valid point about food poverty - personally I would like to see social issues addressed as well as making sure that the food we are discussing is the whole answer.

It is interesting to see where Venezuela is on the list as we are fortunate to have first hand accounts from KK.

PP - that was the article I posted. I was interested to read George Monbiot's comments on the matter too - I wasn't going to post the link as it's Guardian yet again, plus not everyone likes him but it's interesting to read his view: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... KJTSG5XfFg

KC2 - hopefully your sweet potatoes aren't GM (see link below)! It would matter because they are not labelled as such and many have concerns about GM food for a multitude of reasons and should be able to make an informed choice.
https://www.gov.uk/food-safety-as-a-foo ... fied-foods

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby dennispc » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:31 pm

Earthmaiden wrote:It is interesting to see where Venezuela is on the list as we are fortunate to have first hand accounts from KK.


It would be very short - Venezuelas is last, number 113!

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby miss mouse » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:37 pm

Earthmaiden wrote:I feel that food security is certainly the tool that will be used by politicians to try to convince us that we need the kind of food under discussion from the USA. We have relied on being part of the EU for a long time and severed ties with countries which previously supplied food


It was a policy decision circa early 1900s that we would import food and concentrate on manufacturing. Hasn't that worked out well.

That US food is just vile. Did you not hear what the GM Big Biz food, GM rice did to small farmers in India? and guess who is buying up the land.

Australian beef to my surprise is also hormone, antibiotic, feed lot stuff, odd when unpasteurised cheese was the food of the devil for so long.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pampy » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:56 pm

Which? have a petition to ask for UK food standards to be upheld in any US trade deal. Sign here - https://action.which.co.uk/page/s/save- ... s-petition

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby miss mouse » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:37 pm

Probably too late but worth signing anyway, you never know.

The Food Prog, R4 about seed diversity, three seed companies have taken over the world market, Bayer, an American one and a Chinese one

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000k1c8


hmm. That worked well with the Irish potato monoculture.

Another obscure prog on R4 re the chlorine thing, there are microbes which thrive in it.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Earthmaiden » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:15 pm

(a sore subject for some vegans & veggies - sorry!)

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/j ... ianTodayUK

I found this article very interesting and have spent some time reading up our own laws on animal welfare and slaughter, many of which have been amended to EU standards and requirements over the years. I know this sort of thing goes on on an illegal basis (and even possibly with a few tweaks, on a legal basis too).

It made me wonder if, without the backing of the EU and with such a multicultural society whether we might see an accepted increase in such behaviour here. I thought some of the arguments were more complex than one might think initially.

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Re: The chlorinated chicken debate

Postby Pampy » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:23 pm

Earthmaiden wrote:
It made me wonder if, without the backing of the EU and with such a multicultural society whether we might see an accepted increase in such behaviour here. I thought some of the arguments were more complex than one might think initially.

That's a real concern for me too. I live in an area with a very high Asian population and most of the local takeaways (and some big ones too, like KFC) now use halal-certified food. Without our current laws, this can only get more prevalent.
I received an e-mail from Booths supermarket this morning which clearly set out their stance on food provenance, which aligns with my values so I'll definitely be shopping there more, even though there isn't a store close to me.

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